Curse

Gli · Mar 20, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

The game without lootscaling:

Everyone copying a halfway decent farmbuild from PvXwiki will make 50k per hour. It will be too damn easy to create gold. Yes, I mean to say create, by which I mean the gold is added to the economy out the bottomless pockets of the merchants. These people won't know what to do with all this gold, they will be able to afford more fixed price goods than they have use for. They will have to deal with their overflowing storage by investing. They'll pick rare materials, most likely ectoplasm.

Demand for ectoplasm (or other gold-proxy materials) will skyrocket, as will its price. We'll be back where we were 2.5 years ago, except prices will probably be even higher because without lootscaling, we'd be able to create far, far, FAR more money in the same time than in the Prophecies-only days. Given time, every commodity governed by traders (dyes, rare materials) will see their prices increased immensely.

The end result will be that non-farmers will still make the same amount of money and have even less access to anything that doesn't have a fixed price, while farmers will have a lot of wealth that gives them almost unlimited access to fixed-price goods but doesn't mean squat when it comes to the insanely inflated player economy.

People will complain bitterly and leave the game in droves.

DarkGanni · Mar 20, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Ok, there seems to be some confusion about what will happen if LS is lifted. Let's consider the effects one item at a time.

Fixed price items (from a merchant) will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the given amount of money.

Collector weapons and armor will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the collectable drops.

Common crafting materials will become effectively cheaper because the inflation of money is offset by greater production of materials.

Standard armor, weapons and consumables will become effectively cheaper (a combination of fixed price and common materials effects).

Rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same or a bit lower value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them (the decrease being caused by expert salvage from common drops).

Prestige armor and other items requiring rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but less expensive by playing time needed to acquire them.

Vanity items will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them.

People with lots of actual money will become relatively poorer in comparison to other players.

People with lots of ecto will stay as rich as before relative to other players.

Poor people will have better chances at becoming rich people.

All things considered, heck /signed.

Yup Agreed here, You made very good points imo

/Signed definitely

mr_groovy · Mar 20, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Fixed price items (from a merchant) will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the given amount of money.

Through farming + normal play

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Collector weapons and armor will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the collectable drops.

Trough farming + normal play

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Common crafting materials will become effectively cheaper because the inflation of money is offset by greater production of materials.

Through farming + normal play

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Standard armor, weapons and consumables will become effectively cheaper (a combination of fixed price and common materials effects).

Through farming + normal play

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same or a bit lower value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them (the decrease being caused by expert salvage from common drops).

Through farming you can speed it up by a lot...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Prestige armor and other items requiring rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but less expensive by playing time needed to acquire them.

Through farming you can speed it up by a lot...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Vanity items will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them.

Through farming you can speed it up by a lot...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

People with lots of actual money will become relatively poorer in comparison to other players.
People with lots of ecto will stay as rich as before relative to other players.

Poor people will have better chances at becoming rich people.

All things considered, heck /signed.

Fixed it for you Arcanemacabre.

As said before the drop rate through normal play 8/8 will increase too. Due to the fact that insta kills give drops too.

Gli · Mar 20, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

As said before the drop rate through normal play 8/8 will increase too. Due to the fact that insta kills give drops too.

Again, that has nothing to do with lootscaling.

mr_groovy · Mar 20, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

The game without lootscaling:

Everyone copying a halfway decent farmbuild from PvXwiki will make 50k per hour. It will be too damn easy to create gold. Yes, I mean to say create, by which I mean the gold is added to the economy out the bottomless pockets of the merchants. These people won't know what to do with all this gold, they will be able to afford more fixed price goods than they have use for. They will have to deal with their overflowing storage by investing. They'll pick rare materials, most likely ectoplasm.

Demand for ectoplasm (or other gold-proxy materials) will skyrocket, as will its price. We'll be back where we were 2.5 years ago, except prices will probably be even higher because without lootscaling, we'd be able to create far, far, FAR more money in the same time than in the Prophecies-only days. Given time, every commodity governed by traders (dyes, rare materials) will see their prices increased immensely.

The end result will be that non-farmers will still make the same amount of money and have even less access to anything that doesn't have a fixed price, while farmers will have a lot of wealth that gives them almost unlimited access to fixed-price goods but doesn't mean squat when it comes to the insanely inflated player economy.

People will complain bitterly and leave the game in droves.

Or they will be happy that they can get the normal "vanity" items more easy. (prestige armor, insignia, runes, consumables, skill points). Aren't we talking in a circle here? I think we discussed this a few pages ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Again, that has nothing to do with lootscaling.

This has everything to do with Lootscaling as before Lootscaling / hardmode it din't exist.

arcanemacabre · Mar 20, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Fixed it for you Arcanemacabre.

As said before the drop rate through normal play 8/8 will increase too. Due to the fact that insta kills give drops too.

No, you didn't, because it's wrong. What Gli said is right. Loot scaling is only about decreasing droprates [of specific types of drops] for incomplete teams. If it is removed, full teams will see absolutely no benefit, while solo farmers will see their drops increased dramatically. That is fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

This has everything to do with Lootscaling as before Lootscaling / hardmode it din't exist.

Aside from being released at the same time, LS and HM have absolutely nothing in common.

Jongo River · Mar 20, 2008, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

By solo farming.

Ummm... surely I can't be the only person who routinely dropped down to a 4-man team before loot scaling? I hate solo farming (mostly because I lack the patience to bother with the finicky builds, repeat runs etc) and yet I was also negatively affected by loot scaling. I always saw this as the way a long-term, but still fairly "casual" player made their money.

To me, playing the game 4-man was better than hardmode. The rewards were consistent (vanquishing is highly variable) and the moderate increase in difficulty didn't force things to a snails pace (like hard mode often does).

I'd love to see an end to loot scaling.

/signed

Gli · Mar 20, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

This has everything to do with Lootscaling as before Lootscaling / hardmode it din't exist.

If it happens solo as well as in a full party, it has nothing to do with lootscaling, because lootscaling is defined as the effect that adjusts the amount of non-special drops based upon the size of the party. Tomes didn't exist either before lootscaling / hardmode. By your reasoning they would also be a consequence of lootscaling.

Davros Uitar · Mar 20, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

/ not signed - loot scaling should have been in the game from the get go. Sure it took them a long time to fix it, but they do get these things right eventually.

reetkever · Mar 20, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

All things considered, the only people who will benefit from the removal of LS are solo farmers. Well, that and your common materials argument. Everything else is a negative for those who don't solo farm. Convince me otherwise, or I'm afraid I will remain /notsigned.

Well, then go on and solo farm. It's not like you die if you solo farm.

Fact is that nobody benefits from the current situation. If the Lootscaling gets removed, you at least have the choice to kill some trolls for some cash.

It's not negative for those who don't solo farm. If you don't farm, you shouldn't expect to fill your storage with cash either.

It's not like farming is a sin or something, I can't see why people are so against it. Some people say that farming even once makes you a mindless drone that doesn't enjoy the game and only wants stacks full of ecto's.

I can see no reason why the Loot Scaling should be here, and the only people that have a reason to defend it are the rich people that have so much pride that they don't want others to get some vanity.

arcanemacabre · Mar 20, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jongo River

Ummm... surely I can't be the only person who routinely dropped down to a 4-man team before loot scaling?

If you did it for the challenge, nothing has changed. I love soloing from time to time myself - just to see if I could do it. 4-man teams are great, too. The reward is knowing you can do it. If you want to make money, do a service (running, etc.), trading, or simply get together with buddies and tackle high-end areas. I seriously doubt that even before loot scaling a 4-man team could 'farm' more money than an 8-man in high-end areas, and they certainly wouldn't be able to farm as much money as a solo farmer.

EDIT:
I want to make it clear that I have nothing against farmers at all. I realize that it's a playstyle choice, and that some people actually have fun with it. I do have a problem with farmers making way more money than average people playing the game, and even those doing high-end areas, for completely mindless button-mashing. As LS is now, a solo farmer will still make more than an average player [thanks to the exemptions], but not astronomically more like it was before. It's much more balanced - you get what you work for. People just always want more.

mr_groovy · Mar 20, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

If it happens solo as well as in a full party, it has nothing to do with lootscaling, because lootscaling is defined as the effect that adjusts the amount of non-special drops based upon the size of the party. Tomes didn't exist either before lootscaling / hardmode. By your reasoning they would also be a consequence of lootscaling.

Ok I'll just call it now "Insta death Scaling" short IDS. (Not to be confused with an icy dragon sword

).

IDS was introduced with the LS + HM update. And because IDS cuts down your drops significantely, I can make no other conclusion that it is a sub routine of the LS. So yeah:

Code:

if(LS!=TRUE)
{ 
    IDS=False; 
}

Logic tells it too

It would be fine with me if:

Code:

IDS=FALSE;
LS=FALSE;
if(HM==TRUE)
{
  LS=TRUE;
}

Just keep the IDS out of the routine

reetkever · Mar 20, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I seriously doubt that even before loot scaling a 4-man team could 'farm' more money than an 8-man in high-end areas, and they certainly wouldn't be able to farm as much money as a solo farmer.

Yes but most people don't have the time to first search a team for the high-end areas, and then actually play in them.

Before loot scaling, solo-farming was a steady source of income. If you farmed a few minutes, you got some cash and you could actually do stuff. Nothing 'hardcore' here, just casual farming that everyone can do.

After loot scaling, people are forced to play the storyline and can't enjoy other things like opening chests, getting drunk, UW/FoW, making characters pretty etc. Before you waste your cash on keys, you first have to realise that you still need to buy a max armor so you should keep the cash. You also need stuff for heroes, so actually you shouldn't spend anything or else you'll get in trouble later.

arcanemacabre · Mar 20, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Just keep the IDS out of the routine

OK, that I totally agree with. That "IDS" is so much crap, and it affects even team droprates (see Snowman Dungeon). That really needs to go.

Dzan · Mar 20, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Who says the bots or gold sellers are gone?

JeniM · Mar 20, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

The only decent source of income i can see is then end chest of FOW. Sadly I don't have ~2hours to spare every night to clear FOW, let alone the time spamming for a pug. and of course i'm not active enough for one of the big guilds that do runs every night.

As far as I can see, Anet say "If your not 'elite' stay poor or GTFO of our game"

reetkever · Mar 20, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Who says the bots or gold sellers are gone?

Well there will always be SOME, but without loot scaling, bots will have a harder time selling cash (With the loot scaling gone, players can get cash themselves much quicker, so no need to buy it online).

mr_groovy · Mar 20, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Who says the bots or gold sellers are gone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myself in Topic Start

So the question now is if or when 90% of all these gold websites are removed from the game, what purpose does lootscaling still have?

Reading ftw

tmakinen · Mar 20, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Just for completeness, let's consider the effect of playing style on in game options that depend on economy. Without LS

Fixed monetary rewards from quests and vanquishing will become less valuable.
Campaign playing (missions + quests) will become relatively less profitable.
Full team farming will become relatively less profitable.
Reduced team farming will stay at about the same level of relative profitability.
Solo farming will become relatively more profitable.

So, it would appear that LS puts people to equal ground. However, if we separate goods into essential commodities and vanity items, and playing styles to normal play and farming, the picture is quite different.

Essential commodities

Will be equally easy to acquire through normal play whether there is LS or not.
Will be easier to acquire through farming only if there is no LS.

So if you don't want to farm, the existence or non-existence of LS has no effect on your ability to acquire those items that you actually need to play the game. However, if there is no LS you also have the option to get the commodities easier through farming. Currently with LS enabled collectors are practically useless for their intended purpose.

Vanity items

Will be harder to acquire through normal play if there is no LS.
Will be easier to acquire through farming if there is no LS.

What can you say, if you want it, be prepared to make an effort. That's the entire point of vanity items. Vanity items that everybody can afford cease to be such. If you just want to play the game, your inability to acquire a perfect crystalline sword has nothing to do with it since the crystalline doesn't have any advantage over a blue collector sword, and this is one of the most beautiful features of GW.

arcanemacabre · Mar 20, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

The only decent source of income i can see is then end chest of FOW. Sadly I don't have ~2hours to spare every night to clear FOW, let alone the time spamming for a pug. and of course i'm not active enough for one of the big guilds that do runs every night.

As far as I can see, Anet say "If your not 'elite' stay poor or GTFO of our game"

OK, the 2hrs thing I could see, but you don't need a whole guild to do it. You just need one other person and 6 heroes. I just did my first full FoW run since the inclusion of the end chest this past weekend with my wife.

Otherwise, all my money comes from vanquishing and otherwise regular joe-schmoe playing. I rarely trade (like once every couple of months), and I definitely don't farm. You know what - I'm doing just fine. I'm not rich, don't have ectos, but I've got plenty of rare skins, at least one elite armor set for each of my 9 (non-post) characters, and a nearly full HoM on my main (though not one max title).

Simply put, I don't farm because I don't have to - I don't care about wealth. If you want wealth, yeah, you may try becoming "elite" and work a little harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Essential commodities

Will be equally easy to acquire through normal play whether there is LS or not.
Will be easier to acquire through farming only if there is no LS.

Except for weapon mods. If they got a weapon mod trader, I might start agreeing.